Curse

AtomicMew · Jan 29, 2010, 05:35 AM // 05:35

So basically, the slight buff to PvE rangers (1/28/10) got me thinking about rangers again. The easiest class to compare to is the imbagon, since they're both ranged and physical. Here is the proposed build. Cthon and others have argued that rangers are not as good as other classes. I wonder how true that is.

Penetrating Shot
Sundering Attack
Needling Shot
Expert's Focus (15 expertise or higher)
Infuriating Heat {E}
Ebon Battle Standard of Honor
SY!
Drunken Master

Obviously, PS/SA cycling is not maintainable, but you only need to spike your target down to <50%, when you can switch over to needling shot, which costs zero energy with expert's focus and zealous bow.

Basically, I think this has lots of advantages over the imbagon. Infuriating Heat is a global buff, which means you could use it to completely replace your orders in place of something more general (like OotV N/Rt or ER). Or you don't need to, since IH stacks with Dark Fury (although 3x, not 4x). SY! upkeep should be just as good if not better than the imbagon, due to fast-activating skills. And of course, damage should be much higher as well.

Of course, you do lose out on TNTF, but I don't think that's much of a deal, especially considering you no longer need to have orders saccing Dark Fury anymore and can take something else.

WhiteAsIce · Jan 29, 2010, 06:16 AM // 06:16

I've been testing Pene/Sund Shot on the Isle of the Nameless. It seems like there's an aftershot on those now, because before they used to flow right into the next shot, but now there's a slight pause after using one of these. It's not as long as the delay after Distracting or Savage Shot, but it's there nonetheless.

If it's just my imagination, then perhaps my ED Turret build just got better. Or maybe my Prepared Turret is good now too...

kedde · Jan 29, 2010, 07:20 AM // 07:20

Yes, they added a delay to all the 1sec activation skills, which is good.

Chthon · Jan 29, 2010, 07:38 AM // 07:38

1. Infuriating Heat's spirit is painfully low level. It's going to die in 1 hit, or from a small bit of stray AoE, or a strong breeze. Imbagons can maintain SY! 100% on their own (without Dark Fury, don't know why you think they require it) irregardless of just about anything (except blind/chance-to-miss/heavy block/soothing). By contrast, if that spirit gets whacked, your Heat ranger could lose SY! maintenance at a crucial moment. I'll play around with it, but I fear the fact you've got to rely on the spirit not dying is going to be fatal to the build concept.

2. The difference TNtF makes is the difference in damage output and utility between an Imbagon and those Warrior and Sin (and even Dervish) builds that also maintain SY! reasonably well. An Imbagon does not match the damage on a 100lols warrior or a DB sin, but it does have TNtF. A Heat ranger also doesn't match the damage on a 100lols warrior or a DB sin, but it has... what?

3. Penetrating and Sundering definitely got hit with the aftercast in PvE too. (Tested myself.) I wouldn't use them. Power Shot's pretty reliable now though.

4. The entire "turret ranger" concept benefits greatly from Asuran Scan. I'd try to fit it in somewhere. I'd suggest changing out Sundering, Penetrating, Drunken for Scan, Power, Frenzy, assuming you can afford the energy.

Life Bringing · Jan 29, 2010, 08:00 AM // 08:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

3. Penetrating and Sundering definitely got hit with the aftercast in PvE too. (Tested myself.) I wouldn't use them. Power Shot's pretty reliable now though.

While i didn't play a bow ranger a whole lot, i'm not seeing the aftercast. Testing it atm, and either it's nonexistent, or the 3/4 activation is screwing me up.

EDIT:I decided to test it against needling shot, and there is a slight aftercast. However, i really don't see this affecting pve. The aftercast is hardly noticeable.

EDIT2:Now i'm confusing myself. It seems to me that the aftercast doesn't always occur. Every once in a while ill run across a large and extremely noticeable aftercast. However, the rest of the time, it's either extremely small or just not there

AtomicMew · Jan 29, 2010, 08:29 AM // 08:29

Quote:

1. Infuriating Heat's spirit is painfully low level. It's going to die in 1 hit, or from a small bit of stray AoE, or a strong breeze. Imbagons can maintain SY! 100% on their own (without Dark Fury, don't know why you think they require it) irregardless of just about anything (except blind/chance-to-miss/heavy block/soothing).

You could always just summon IH out of range. At rank 15, it lasts 60 seconds, which is almost always enough time for the fight to be decided.

I didn't mean to imply that imbagons require dark fury, just that it's quite common to take with an imbagon and phys heavy party. A self-contained imbagon only provides adrenal boost for himself, whereas IH provides adrenal boost for the entire party, which can effectively replace dark fury in an orders-bot.

Quote:

2. The difference TNtF makes is the difference in damage output and utility between an Imbagon and those Warrior and Sin (and even Dervish) builds that also maintain SY! reasonably well.

Do you have any reasoning to back this up? TNTF seems pretty marginal to me if you can keep up SY! all the time.

A ranger maintains SY! much better than melee by the virtue of being ranged (meaning your always in shout range of everything and don't need to chase kiting foes).

Also, you're going to have to provide some numbers for melee characters doing more damage. Compared to the ever popular d-slash, for example, it isn't clear (at least to me) when you factor in the party wide adrenal boost from IH and couple that with both warrior hench and/or another adrenal hero.

Quote:

3. Penetrating and Sundering definitely got hit with the aftercast in PvE too. (Tested myself.) I wouldn't use them.

That sucks. Hooray for pointless nerfs.

Tenebrae · Jan 29, 2010, 09:37 AM // 09:37

The point of Turret ranger is ( spike ) damage so i would switch that elite for Prep shot and SY for Asuran scan. Pack a zealous bow if energy loss is too heavy. Some ppl will use triple shot instead Ebsoh but that depends of team type ofc.

asb · Jan 29, 2010, 03:00 PM // 15:00

Even before the nerf I usually used PS/SA/NS + scan + Prep Shot/experts focus. It still works, but now I'd rather take Marksman's Wager and Drunken Master.

If no one in your party carries SY! you can offer to go IH+SY, but I'd suggest letting a Mesmer bring Soothing Images or a Rit Soothing, if the mobs are adren-dependent.

Demonlord Matt · Jan 29, 2010, 03:11 PM // 15:11

And my last favorite character is hit with the nerf-bat.

MasterSasori · Jan 29, 2010, 05:59 PM // 17:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by trcvrs

You could always just summon IH out of range. At rank 15, it lasts 60 seconds, which is almost always enough time for the fight to be decided.

But shit happens and the spirit is still vulnerable though it is unlikely if placed correctly.

Quote:

Originally Posted by trcvrs

I didn't mean to imply that imbagons require dark fury, just that it's quite common to take with an imbagon and phys heavy party. A self-contained imbagon only provides adrenal boost for himself, whereas IH provides adrenal boost for the entire party, which can effectively replace dark fury in an orders-bot.

Dark fury wouldn't matter if you could just run OoV

You do bring up a good point, but if DF is available, then why not use it? It's not as if blood has much to contribute to it for the OoP. Other than MoF and Strip enchant, I don't see much use of it (maybe blood rit?).

Quote:

Originally Posted by trcvrs

Do you have any reasoning to back this up? TNTF seems pretty marginal to me if you can keep up SY! all the time.

TNTF also protects against armor ignoring damage while SY does not do that. If you don't think it matters, try playing around with Vaettir. The party wide heal can also be a bit useful. TNTF also gives you protection if SY fails. This is important where there is blocking, blind, lag, and other problems. I do not doubt that your ranger you present can keep SY up 24/7 except with the summoning of IH, but they have the same faults/weaknesses of Imbagons but at least Imbagons have TNTF when shit happens.

I'm not sure about Rangers, but Imbas do have some counters against SY upkeep problems. Swift Javelin and wild throw can deal with some blocking. Shield Inscrip for blind can shorten the duration. I do also want to point out that though rangers have fast action skills, Spears fire faster than bow attacks in general.

Quote:

Originally Posted by trcvrs

A ranger maintains SY! much better than melee by the virtue of being ranged (meaning your always in shout range of everything and don't need to chase kiting foes).

That is debatable and depends on the circumstance. In areas full of enemies, melees can keep up SY and if there aren't so many enemies, the need for SY isn't so vital. If it is, more than likely the few enemies are going to be fatties that will last long enough for SY upkeep. DSlash/scythe Wars and locust fury sins come to mind when keeping up sy.

Also about your point in which damage by melee vs turret ranger, Melees also can use AoE which matters when there is alot of enemies. Because of this, it is reasonable that they can even keep SY up better than Imbagon or Rangers if there are enough enemies and they have enough AoE attacks.

Redvex · Jan 29, 2010, 06:45 PM // 18:45

This is my current build. I vanquished and got legendary guardian.
( Obiuvsly It works better before anyway

)
Now power shot even if have short recharge is too slow (in hm do better damage but mob have time to heal) then other skill on bar.
I dunno why nerfing precision shot in pve

Marksman wager is an awesome elite.
Near infinity energy and you can spamm your pve skills and fast (before) kill

Chthon · Jan 31, 2010, 11:06 PM // 23:06

Took this out for a spin.

Heat has all the problems I expected. Setting it back before the start of the fight doesn't solve the problems. If you get a long fight or multiple mobs you either have to run away from the fight to lay it, letting up on offensive pressure and SY! for a prolonged period, or lay it close to the fight, where it risks getting killed.

Also had energy problems.

Tried swapping Experts and Heat for Wager and FGJ. That worked a lot better. But block and bad terrain really stymie Wager, and it lacks punch until it gets to Needle mode.

WhiteAsIce · Feb 01, 2010, 12:40 AM // 00:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by kedde

Yes, they added a delay to all the 1sec activation skills, which is good.

I don't see any reason why this is good at all. I used to be able to chain Pene/Sund easily. Now there's a gap between shots, sometimes not even chaining with another skill at all.

Desert Rose · Feb 01, 2010, 12:52 AM // 00:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by WhiteAsIce

I don't see any reason why this is good at all. I used to be able to chain Pene/Sund easily. Now there's a gap between shots, sometimes not even chaining with another skill at all.

kedde proberly argues from a PvP point of view, where the changes are good.
In PvE Penetrating and Sundering Shot have their activition times reduced to compensate for the added aftercast delay, so in the end the damage from these skills stays nearly the same.

MasterSasori · Feb 01, 2010, 05:27 PM // 17:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

Took this out for a spin.

Heat has all the problems I expected. Setting it back before the start of the fight doesn't solve the problems. If you get a long fight or multiple mobs you either have to run away from the fight to lay it, letting up on offensive pressure and SY! for a prolonged period, or lay it close to the fight, where it risks getting killed.

Also had energy problems.

Tried swapping Experts and Heat for Wager and FGJ. That worked a lot better. But block and bad terrain really stymie Wager, and it lacks punch until it gets to Needle mode.

It inherits all the problem of Imbagon and has this extra to add on.

I agree with your second option build. It works much better IMO. The build works as well as I thought, which is good but it doesn't quite meet the Imbagon. It does perform better than most melee builds but not as well as the DSlash in certain circumstances, especially when FGJ is up.

Chthon · Feb 01, 2010, 09:49 PM // 21:49

Picking up where I left off last time, a few tweaks:

First, the lack of punch while the target is over 50% needs to be addressed.

I'd like to do it in 1 attack skill, but that's not feasible. Triple Shot is probably the most damage we can get on 1 attack skill, but it's still not enough to reliably take things under 50%, and the recharge is too long to repeat promptly on the next target.

So, that means we have to give up Scan for a second attack skill. We're looking for something spammy enough it will be ready for the next target (or the same target if it gets healed back over 50%) with good damage. A quick review shows that bow attacks generally suck. Taking a page from trcvrs's original concept, I decided to look at a high Expertise build, and I saw Point Blank/Zojun's Shot. That's +42 at 16 Expertise (rangers can afford the Sup. rune), on a 3 sec recharge, for just 5e, and there's two of them. Forget Power Shot; base + 42 is going to average higher even against heavy armor. What about that silly half-range business? Turns out half of longbow/flatbow range is still perfectly safe, and monsters don't really have the sort of smart positioning tactics that would punish you for range-gimping yourself.

Second, because we've replaced a 10e bow attack and a 5e spell with two 5e bow attacks, we can trade away some e-management for more damage.

I tried going for broke and just using Glass Arrows with no e-management. Sadly, that doesn't work. And the only e-management options that work with Glass Arrows aren't going to work in this build. (Body Shot is generally unreliable; Scavenger Strike needs 2 skillslots we don't have.) The next best choice is Expert's Focus, which combines some e-management with some damage buff.

That frees the elite slot, so we can upgrade something. Since Frenzy is the big energy-hog, we replace that with Expert's Dexterity (wth? I'm using Expert's Dexterity in a build?!) for a cheaper 33% IAS and whatever small damage buff another 2 ranks of Marks gives us. I tested this and the energy holds up with a zealous bow.

So, the current test build is:
16 Expertise, 13 Marks
Point Blank, Zojun Shot, Needling, SY!, FGJ!, EBSoH, Expert's Focus, Expert's Dexterity

Weak Points:
* Doesn't keep SY! up as well as an Imbagon. Needs to Needle to get 100% uptime under FGJ!, and needs to Needle with help from Dark Fury to get 100% uptime when FGJ! is down.
* Damage is all single-target.
* Damage is not really on par with Sins, Warriors, or even Dervs.

Interesting question: Can we get a Barrage+Needle build to hold up SY! comparatively well? With what level of damage?

MasterSasori · Feb 02, 2010, 07:11 PM // 19:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

Interesting question: Can we get a Barrage+Needle build to hold up SY! comparatively well? With what level of damage?

I've thought about this but haven't tested it much. From hearsay, Barrage+Splinter+SY works pretty well with FGJ and needling but the uptime for SY is still not 100%. What you get instead is quick recharge when there is alot of monsters even at 100% with FGJ, but as the numbers dwindle, SY is much more difficult to keep up.

Ideally though it would be better if there was a second player who could use GDW with to cast on the barrage ranger so gaps in SY isn't as noticeable. It is damage mitigation offensive style.

AtomicMew · Feb 02, 2010, 07:45 PM // 19:45

I think IH is important in making this build something that you should consider over other professions (since it buffs party members as well.) IH on a hero, I never notice downtime.

I really don't see how IH dying can be a weak point, when you can just place it outside of range and it lasts quite a long time. Note that it doesn't have to last the whole fight, it just needs to last long enough for the fight to be decided. I suppose it would work better in a 2-man team, where the other guy could pull the mob and you can time IH setup just before the mob arrives.

Chthon · Feb 02, 2010, 08:51 PM // 20:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by trcvrs

I think IH is important in making this build something that you should consider over other professions (since it buffs party members as well.) IH on a hero, I never notice downtime.

I really don't see how IH dying can be a weak point, when you can just place it outside of range and it lasts quite a long time. Note that it doesn't have to last the whole fight, it just needs to last long enough for the fight to be decided. I suppose it would work better in a 2-man team, where the other guy could pull the mob and you can time IH setup just before the mob arrives.

IH works fine for easy fights with garbage mobs. Casting IH a ways back before you engage the mob is going to give you maybe 45 sec from the time you start hitting them until the time IH needs to be recast. If that's enough time for the fight, you're fine.

The problem comes when you've got a situation where IH is going to be expiring before the battle is decided. That can be one hard mob that's going to last awhile, or multiple mobs (whether from deliberately rushing, an overaggro mistake, a woops-we're-fighting-on-a-patrol-path mistake, or a quest/mission feature that forces you to fight multiple mobs). You've got to recast, but there's no good way to do it. Casting in place risks getting IH killed. Falling back to cast takes time during which you're not gaining any adrenaline and messes with your H+H's AI. I suspect having a second person staying in the fight would probably fix the AI problems. But there's not a darned thing you can do about the casting-in-place-is-bad-but-falling-back-is-also-bad problem.

A less significant problem with IH is mobility. You can't make a slow retreat without putting IH (and your SY! ability) at risk (at the time you most need SY!). You also can't advance running into a situation and start throwing out SY! I can think of lots of situations where you may need to enter a fight at a dead run (Bastion, Jennur's Horde, 4 Horsemen, just about anything with Prince Rurick, etc.)

In sum, IH just isn't a suitable replacement for an Imbagon. The SY! reliability is a lot lower and there's no huge advantages to offset that loss. Moreover, when I take into account all the hassle and risks and limitations on IH, I don't really find it superior to just running FGJ!

AtomicMew · Feb 03, 2010, 05:13 PM // 17:13

You're right. This build is unworkable as I envisioned.

What about IH for heroes? I've been trying out IH on my hero. Compared to Dark Fury, heroes spend ~4 seconds every ~60 instead of 1.5 every ~6. It seems to work very well, so far:

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